1980's Naval Infantry scale of issue?

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[wulf74]

I have the same belt, black leather with steel buckle,  I dont have the harness but, it looks like it is black leather.

[michelwijnand]

The harness and belt I have are the same material as the regular infantry
belt and harness, canvas with black stuff on it instead of the brown

[wulf74]

black canvas, even better. so its like identical to black ak web slings?

[michelwijnand]

No, I believe those really are black canvas, what I mean is the khaki canvas, with black (MorPeh)
and brown (motor rifles) sort of paste on it, like most belts from the 1980's

[wulf74]

ah gotcha!

[desantnik]

I honestly think that webbing gear is either post-Soviet Ukrainian (could be Rus Fed I suppose) or just simply made up by dying/painting other stuff.

The reason why I say that is because in pre-88 they used leather gear - belts and cross straps.... in the 88 dress regulations you see they use the same brown coated webbing belts and y-straps with the woodland cammo field uniforms.... the black gear will be naval belts, which aren't proper leather but are "cardboard" like land forces service dress belts.

Happy to be proven wrong with some original photos...

[Jay]

Black Y-Straps and Canteen Cover in Russian (not Soviet but still) Service.

[desantnik]

Ok, so Russian.... maybe not Ukrainian.... but not Soviet...

Interesting to see just the odd black items there, not uniformly black....

[michelwijnand]

Here's a pic from 1967 which is more or less good quality, under the grey buckles you can see the khaki color
of canvas on the inside between the straps, I have no good pics of the belts, pics of soviet MorPeh are
difficult enough to find even in shitty quality.

I believe these Y-style straps were never made out of leather, only the shoulder pads of (fake) leather.



Also you mentioned a coat being Ukrainian post soviet, do you mean the one with the fur collar I also have?
Or another coat, as I do see these exact coats with fur collar listed in the 1969 and 73 dress regs, but not in the 88 ones
as TTsKO came

Cheers,
Michel

[desantnik]

Hmmmm maybe then... maybe!

[Rot Hund]

A question about the beret badges:  I'm noticing that the Naval Infantry berets have a mixture of insignia.  As in, some have the "Naval Infantry" oval badge with the gold border, black body, and Red Star, while some have just the regular standard Soviet badge with the Red Star and gold wreath.  Why the variation?  Is it simply the time period?  Occupations within the Naval Infantry?

[wulf74]

black pressed cardboard? really?

[chaoslord800]

Is that belt a web belt or a leather belt? What about the y-straps too?

The summer uniform, are those boards sewn down or are they buttoned on somehow? The don't look sewn on... What do the trousers look like - are they fastening up the front (like normal trousers) or side fastening?

The winter jacket is deffo not Soviet period. What do the factory stamps say? During the Soviet period there are two (black) naval winter jacket for sailors/soldiers (other items for commanders etc), the shinel and the peacoat... and technically only one issued to the Naval Infantry - the shinel.

I have a feeling we are looking at Ukrainian post-Soviet gear here... they kept their Naval Infantry (well, 1 btn of them in the Crimea, was 2 for a while but knocked back in 2005) and the black gear...

I think we've cleared up everything but the summer uniform.  The shoulder boards button and are not sewn on.  Also, the trousers button up in the front.  I believe it's dated 92.  If it's Russian (obviously would be post Soviet) I'm not bothered by it too much.  However, if it does in fact turn out to be Ukrainian I would feel a bit cheated. I received a Ukrainian uniform from Soviet-Power and let me tell you... It's nowhere near as "wearable" as this uniform is. 



Here is a picture of the stamp, it's not my picture (I didn't take it) but the stamp is identical.

The way the shoulder boards are set up looks identical to this photograph:



They way they sit it does not appear that they are sewn on. However, I am not an expert, Desantnik I value whatever info you can provide us with here.  This is the only piece of kit I've purchased that I would consider "questionable".

[desantnik]

black pressed cardboard? really?

Well, they aren't "cardboard" exactly, but that is what they are known as. I assume they are some kind of reconstituted leather fragments or something - a bit like mechanically reclaimed chicken in chicken nuggets

But yes, late Soviet land forces and naval forces belts are made from that as opposed to the previous ones being just leather belts as you'd imagine a leather belt to be.

Chaos Lord - let me go take some photos of how the boards sit on both my NI uniform and also of a sailor uniform - then you will see what I mean.

As for the trousers, the trousers side fasten just like all traditional sailor's uniforms (of all countries) do. That yours front fasten suggest later design. Front fastening is a better design for dealing with the call of nature I can tell you! Not quite sure where the side fastening design comes from - the Royal Navy probably!

That stamp shows 1992, but not sure about the factory location - I'll work it out after my 2nd coffee!

See how in that last photo you can clearly see the use of short sapogi too - not the land forces ones!

[desantnik]

Not got the photos yet (will do them tonight) but while drinking coffee at work I did a little google-fu and the term is "flap fronted trousers" or "fall fronted trousers" and this is the way after cod pieces fell out of fashion all men's trousers were designed - without a fly like pretty much all use today. A button internal belt holds them around you, then buttons at each hip unfasten to allow the front flap to fall down to enable you access to your "equipment"

So its just a historical hangover...

Anyway, just some background info

[michelwijnand]

Just wanted to pull this topic back to ask if anyone has ever seen a black saperka pouch in pics or wherever?

I have been keeping my eyes open for almost 2 years now, and have only seen 1 black one, which turned
out to be a random unit issued WW2 pouch...

[chaoslord800]

I am still looking for one as well. Seeing as how they (seemingly) have a black counterpart to everything issued to the Motor Rifles guys I can't imagine why they wouldn't have manufactured black saperka pouches as well. I'll check my photos and see if I can pick one out. They did use regular color PMG and Schm41M gas mask bags, at least in the pics that I have, so I suppose you never know. It is a bit frustrating trying to track something down which may or may not even exist. 

[michelwijnand]

Yes my thoughts exactly, I guess I'm just gonna make my impression with either a black ww2 pouch, or a
khaki/green postwar pouch, and see if I find another black one later to replace it with.
I already have all the other stuff, and it's taking damn long to finish this impression, I got to finish it sometime...

[chaoslord800]

Just found this film on Youtube... If you stop at 0:10 it looks like they may be using the standard issue tan saperka pouch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8wG4dYgbC4

[chaoslord800]

Actually, going back to this, it seems like they may have black gas mask bags too (near the very end of the video when they're assaulting the beach)s, though, it could just be the lighting. I think an ideal impression would consist of ALL black gear, but I think MOSTLY black gear is just as well. In some pics you can see regular canteen covers as well as regular gas mask bags being used.  In the video it looks like they may be using regular Saperka covers.

[michelwijnand]

Yes now that you say it, those pouches look pretty dark, nice!
Something more to go look for sometime, as I will be using the other type of mask used, PMG or whatever it was called.
Guess I'll do it the same as with the Saperka pouch, use khaki until I find black ones

[fallout2077]

Comrade where did you get the black grenade pouch and y straps?

[michelwijnand]

Well i found my Y-straps at a fair in Ciney (Belgium), and the F1 pouch from a forum member here a while back

[Mr.Spank]

I have a couple of MorPeh/Naval Infantry related items for sale in my sale thread:
http://www.red-alliance.net/forum/index.php?topic=18676.0
Among which, is a hand grenade pouch.

[chaoslord800]

Some more pictures I found:


Suez Canal, 1986






You can see the M88 TTsKO uniform with button closure on the arm pockets in this one!





PS: FINALLY found myself a pair of short sapogi!